Connecticut Children's Women in Surgery Episode 3: Maintaining a Sense of...

Welcome. You're tuning in to Candid Conversations with Women in Surgery from Connecticut Children's, a premier regional pediatric healthcare system. Topics can range from emerging research to career advice, to the unique challenges female surgeons face when breaking into a male-dominated field. Hello, I'm Lisa Morella, the director of organizational effectiveness and learning at Connecticut Children's. In my role as a dedicated resource to our physicians and advanced practice providers, I have the pleasure of joining you as the host of the Women in Surgery podcast. Joining us today are, hi, everyone, I'm Doctor Melissa Santos. I'm an associate professor of pediatrics at the University of Connecticut School of Medicine. I'm the interim division chief of Pediatric Psychology, and I'm the clinical director for obesity Services. I think we're supposed to say like one fun fact about ourselves. So, um, what people may not know about me is how large of a family I have, including, um, A very high number of cousins that um make up my very extended family. Hi everyone, I'm Anne Dudley. I'm one of the um pediatric urologists here, uh, and I have a special interest in neurogenic bladder and robotic surgery. Uh, I joined Connecticut Children's in 2017 and Completed training prior to that in Pittsburgh and Nashville. Um, I, uh, stay busy at home with my husband and two young daughters and are a very energetic dog and love being outside running, um, and water skiing when, uh, the world allows. Doctor Sonia Chaudhry. Hi, I'm an assistant professor of orthopedic surgery. I do pediatric orthopedics as well as hand surgery. Um, academically, my special interest is peripheral nerve surgery and, um, Likewise, I'm busy at home, uh, especially now with my two kids who are 5 and 3, and, uh, looking forward to a nice winter. My whole family kinda loves skiing and snowboarding, so it'll be perfect. Hi, everybody. I'm Chris Fink. I am the executive vice president and surgeon in chief and professor at the University of Connecticut. And I specialize in pediatric, general, and thoracic surgery. Um, I'm also a wife and a mother of 3. I love my 3 puppies, uh, my kitty, as well as my horse. And, um, I I'm an aficionado of Jon Bon Jovi. OK, thank you very much, everyone. So we are going to jump right in and we're going to jump in on tonight's topic, which is about maintaining a sense of wellness. And we're going to begin with a lightning round. I'm going to put 30 seconds on the clock for each of you. And I want you to tell me, what does wellness mean to you? 30 seconds on the clock. Melissa, we're gonna start with you. So I think of wellness as the intentional things that we do in our world and in our life to live a life that's personally for us fulfilling and meaningful. And I think the key word in um wellness is intentional. I don't think wellness comes to us. I think we have to be very intentional about seeking it out and making it a critical part of our everyday. All right, so I think for me, wellness. Uh, similar to what Melissa mentioned, a practice, a practice of working towards physical and mental well-being and happiness and how I can shape every day and, and try to intentionally move forward and practice, uh, you know, living life to the fullest. Uh, for me, wellness is basically being happy, which is, uh, it takes different things to get there at different times. So, you know, currently uh isolating at home, it's uh maintaining social relationships while still being able to, you know, function at work, uh, both with direct patient care and then kind of the extra things that, that motivate us academically. Um, at other times, it could be more physically active, but basically that sense of, you know, kind of having all your ducks in a row, both at your profession and outside of your profession. How about you, Chris? Um, for me, wellness is um similar to what everybody else is saying. It is that intentional act of making sure that you are thinking about yourself during the day and and. yourself a little bit of self-care, whatever that is, whether it's the physical activity, you know, going to the gym, or just taking that mindful moment to reflect on how the experiences are shaping you during the day. But I also think it's about understanding what your priorities are in life, and um making sure you make time for not only your work, but also your play. Love it. So, let me just say back, I heard things about being intentional, that it's, uh, about well-being, and I heard the word happiness several times, um, things that motivate us, being mindful. As we think about the, uh, ideas we just shared about wellness and well-being, what are some of the other things you've thought about as you've made your life journey and tried to include wellness in it? Personal level, um, you know, when we are going through our training and education to become what we, you know, um, aspire to be, we work very hard at our craft, um, and being the best that we can at what we do and trying to achieve all of the goals that we think are necessary. And we sometimes forget about ourselves. And I do remember when I first got out of residency, it struck me that I. Didn't really have a hobby anymore. You know, I used to love to ride horses. And one of the things that I made a very strong, you know, um, intentional, um, you know, act to do was to find another hobby that I could uh use on the downtimes when I needed to kind of forget about everything that was going on at work and try to, you know, uh, have some self care. I think it gets a little bit more challenging when you have children, because all of a sudden you're taking care of other little humans. Um, and then some of the times of you taking care of yourself, um, kind of falls lower in priority. I don't know, and, if you feel that way too, sometimes. Yeah, I think, um, I think for me it's, uh, you know, coming out of training, um, it was one of those things where, uh, prior to that, especially in medicine, I think you have the sense that all of your time should be for training, um, and maybe that's just me, but, uh, that was sort of, uh, the mindset, and I think when you're done, you, you realize this is, this is the continuum from now on, um, and you have to figure out a way to, to balance things and, uh, there's some things that you don't have to prioritize because. They, they push themselves to the front, um, but there's other times like, uh, your own, uh, time, uh, setting aside some time to just be with yourself or even, you know, craft out those hobbies that I think, uh, really do pay us back, uh, by allowing us to, you know, disconnect for a little bit and, uh, and really focus on, uh, on something and, and provide that break, that mental break that you need to recharge and be able to be there for your kids, your family, or, or, um, yourself. You know, I heard Chris say at the beginning, she talked about being a prioritization, and you just mentioned prioritization also. What are some of the things that elbow their way to the front of the line ahead of our taking care of our own well-being and wellness? Uh, I would say that, uh, you know, Having children certainly does it, and patients are almost in the same way. Um, you can't not be there for them. You know, everything else can go by the wayside, you know, deadlines for, you know, publications or this and that, but, uh, if in immediate patient care, you cannot take a break, um, and same thing with parenting. Uh, so those things must take priority no matter what you have scheduled the night before or the morning of. And I think sort of similar to that for those of us that are sort of in the sandwich generation where we have older uh parents also taking care of our parents, um, and making sure that particularly in these times that they're staying safe and um not doing things that are gonna get them um unwell during, um, sort of these times. And I like what people have talked about in terms of hobbies and I oftentimes think about what we do for. Wellness to sort of turn off the work brain to be able to turn on our home brain, um, sometimes because I think that transition time can be challenging in terms of wellness and bringing your work sort of home. I remember in, in one psychology, um, course we, we did this thing where every day where we'd leave, um, campus to go home, we would have to like blast like heavy metal. Music in our cars or some kind of music, um, just to help turn off our brain and be like, OK, this is my transition moment from like not carrying home the problems of my patients now to my home life and sort of having that transition so that when I, you got home, you could actually do the wellness things that you wanted to do and kind of having that, that break point in there. So I do have a question for you, Melissa. Um, do you like heavy metal? Yes. I'm an 80s hair band, like aquanet hair girl. I, I had Bon Jovi posters in my, my, my, my room when I was a kid, Skid Row. Oh my God. That's awesome. I just never would have, would have pictured, you know, blasting heavy metal for you to be your transition moment. But that's great. It's good to know. Good to know. What about others? Anything else that you've experienced that sort of elbowed yourself, elbows itself to the priorities? I heard you talk about during training, your training did, our children, our parents. Well, now I think for me, you know, being in the, you know, executive vice president role, um, a lot of institutional priorities tend to elbow their way up because there are a lot of critical things that are happening, especially now the environment. is dynamic and changing. And whether it's the pandemic or the financial crisis that hospitals face, it always seems like there's one more thing that you have to get through or address, uh, before you can take time, not only for your family, but for yourself. And it gets back to that prioritization. How do you prioritize um your, your day to make sure that you're keeping all of those top of mind, not only your, your obligations, but your obligations to yourself. I hear you each talk about juggling that, you know, keeping so many balls in the air. Do any of you have a story about a moment of reckoning where you were, where you thought to yourself, I have got to take better care of me. We sometimes hear that expression about putting on our own oxygen mask before we can turn and help people in our lives. Do any of you have a moment of that reckoning where you knew you had to put on your own oxygen mask? I mean, I think the, this recent pandemic has, has forced us all to be a little bit. More, uh, um, honest with ourselves in terms of just what we, what we have bandwidth for and what we don't have bandwidth for. And I think that, you know, early on, uh, I don't know about anyone else, but I felt a lot of anxiety about this and, uh, really was, was trying to be a support for some people in much more of a frontline, uh, position, um, and really realized that, I didn't have a lot of bandwidth for a lot of other things. Um, and so, I think that for me, it was important to just say, you know, right now, I can, I can worry about. Me, my family, and, and a few, a few other key people to help support, but I'm not sure I have a lot of other time to kind of perseverate on some of these things. And, and for me, that was really helpful because then I could, I could take that time and do something completely, you know, not related to the news, exercise, or, or really, you know, not be on the phone, um, talking about the same thing over again, um, and really try to, to protect my own mental, mental health. I also think that sometimes we get so caught up and similar to what Ann is, is talking about with the pandemic. You know, right before the pandemic hit, you know, it wasn't uncommon that in my world, I would have, you know, 6 or 7 activities that I had to get the kids to, to, to on the weekend, you know, after a busy week at work, being on call, trying to make sure that, you know, the patients are getting taken care of, that your family's getting taken care of, and it almost got overwhelming, and it was only after the pandemic slowed everything down or essentially shut everything down. That I took a look back and was like, wow, all the stuff that you're doing, and, and really, why? Why do you do all the different things that you do? And what value does it add? And it made me reflect on some of the things that I thought was super important for my family, like, oh, they had to be at every soccer game, or they had to be at every football game, and do they really need to, or was time with family a little bit more important, and a little bit more valuable, not only for my own, you know, mental wellbeing, but for the family's well-being. And so I challenge everybody to always stop and think, um, what you're doing and make sure that it makes sense um for its value. I was going to say, I don't know, Ann or Sonia, do you guys have any thoughts about the activities that you sign your kids up for? because I find sometimes that that gets overwhelming on the weekends because you're trying to be the best that you can be at everything that you do, best wife, best, you know, uh parent, best doctor, and does it. Almost get a little bit crazy, whatever the opposite is of a tiger mom, that that's what I've become. And that's, I pretty much started out as that, because that's kind of how I was raised. My parents kind of let me take my own direction, and therefore, I had to pick my own instrument and find my own music teacher, and things like that, but it made what I chose very meaningful, because I picked it. On that note, I had read an article once on how. You know, parents, we kind of give everything to our kids and how it's sometimes a little good to be selfish and focus on your own wellness as parents because that in itself is what is good for your children. So in that same way, again, maybe it's the luxury of having younger kids right now, but we have chosen activities for them that we ourselves enjoy. You know, so instead of sticking them into, you know, maybe a sport where we could sit on the sidelines or watch them or give up our time or drop them off, we kind of just make them go to things that we enjoy, you know, a hike or a bike ride, so they're active and they're with other people, but that way we combine everything, you know, where we hang out. And I think if you're lucky enough to have situations where you can do that, combined socializing and that physical. Activity or outdoorsy stuff, make it educational, you know, whatever you can do. That's all very enriching time. Chris, you said something earlier about, um, this drive, and I wonder if it's, um, specifically about being women who are surgeons, um, about being the best in all you do. And I'm wondering how that drive to be the best in all you do. Competes or does it not compete with this idea of wellness. So, I'd love to hear your each of your thoughts on this be the best in all you can do, which is part of, I think, what caused you to be, uh, in the profession you're in, and how that impacts, uh, your sense of wellness and well-being. I completely agree, um, with what you're saying, um, because the drive. Almost takes over and um it's very prescriptive in the path that you're choosing, you know, publish one more paper, do one more case, stay late just to make sure you're taking care of that patient or you get to see that operation. And you almost kind of lose yourself in it. Um, I do find like having conversations with, with, say, Melissa, um, helps me because she does remind me of mindfulness, and sometimes slowing down a little bit to reflect on what the value you're getting out of all that stuff um means to you. Uh, and it, it, it then it transpires into, OK, um, I've, I've achieved this, right? I've graduated residency, I've finished my fellowship, I've got my first job. Now I'm going to be the real me, but then all of a sudden family comes into it. And then you realize that you want to be the best for your kids, so that your kids are the best and Um, so I do think it's part of our personality and part of what our ambition, um, contributes to our success in our field. Um, but I do think that there are times where you have to sit back and, um, just reflect on what you're doing and make sure it is giving you the value that you think that it should be giving you. I was just gonna say that I think sometimes that drive, though, can, it's interesting how it could show up in sort of our worlds. I was sort of curious for, for you all, how many of you could go like your entire vacation without. Checking Epic or checking your email, or whether Chris is laughing she emailed me while she was in labor, um, but she, um, I, you know, I think it's that kind of drive of like always feeling like you have to be on and have to be responsive. And if you take too long to respond to a message or an email, or get your revisions back or things like that, it's like you're failing. And I always think that the standard is a little bit different for, for women than it is for men sometimes, um, in terms of those, um. Sort of behaviors. So, I think it's interesting that the drive can really get in the way, but I think sometimes in ways that we don't even kind of realize, like the number of times we check our emails or, you know, that epic beeps me on my phone every time a patient tries to send me a message and it's like responding right away sort of thing. That's the, the double-edged sword of, uh, trying to, to, you know, harness that. And I think that's where it does, I think, take a little bit of being pretty prescriptive when you're gonna go on vacation and putting up that way and, and trying really hard. Um, and I think it does take practice. And so, I, I can't say as I, uh, have not, you know, logged into Epic on vacations, but I try really hard not to, um, and, uh, it does. Doesn't always work, um, but I think it, it's worth a try because it does allow that break, um, but I think that, you know, similar to what you're mentioning, I think that there's times where you do have to step back and say, you know, maybe I don't have to be the best at this one particular workout today or maybe I am just gonna, you know, do 15 minutes and see how it goes, um, which I think is again a difficult transition for, for some of us who are used to everything being, uh, you know, uh, something to achieve. Um, but I think it gets easier, especially if you kind of figure out what, what you want to focus your efforts on. In terms of, you know, when, when we started, we talked about being intentional. And I think, um, at least with in terms of responding to stuff when you're away or kind of quote unquote, off the clock, that is something it's kind of easy to be intentional about for me in that uh on the phone, right, you can choose what you get notifications about. And, uh, you know, I watched this kind of thing, this documentary, the social something disturbance or dilemma, talking about all the negatives and that kind of dopamine hit of social media, of checking your email and all those things. And it was, you know, kind of like describing it, opened my eyes to what was going on. And so I just had to be very intentional about before you get every notification. And that's probably not necessary. So I became very intentional about what I get notifications for and not. So I just decided, you know, patient messages, yes, because I, to me, it's not, it's more stress, it's more stress inducing to not know what's going on. So, um, those are something I want to know. About and then you can choose to respond appropriately. And of course, you know, text messages and calls. And beyond that, I just turned everything off and that has been kind of a lifesaver because otherwise I would check every email because why not? And then once you check it, you might have, you know, it's a hallmark of efficiency that there's a There's an acronym, right? OSO only see it once. Uh, you know, you see that email, if you can quickly knock it out, why not? But if you never get that notification, then you become a lot more intentional about, OK, now it's time to check my work email and respond quickly. And I'm not going to do it in the middle of reading a book to my kid, or I'm not going to do it in the middle of a walk with a friend. I'm going to do it at the end, you know, and take 5 minutes and then, and then those email responses even become better, right? Not to mention you don't interrupt what you're doing. So, um, you know, that's something I've been very intentional about that's made a big help, at least for me. Thanks, Sonia. I was thinking as I was listening to, um, each of you speak that this podcast is really about women in surgery. And so, I'd like to ask you the question about, what do you think are unique barriers that women in, in surgery face around either, uh, uh, uh, their, on their wellness journey. Or that you have faced on your wellness journey. I think women tend to be natural caregivers, um, and I think that, uh, while society is shifting, um, that remains, uh, an expectation in, uh, many families in many cultures, and, uh, um, I think that that, that has been a challenge, um, in that, uh, you're, you're trying to balance the, the caregiving aspect, whether it be a parent or. A friend or, or your children, um, in terms of, uh, everything else. Um, and again, I think that's where prioritizing some carving out some time for yourself to either do meditation or journal or anything that kind of makes you tick, or even just go for a walk by yourself, um, I think is, is something, uh, you know, that's helpful and, and does require a little bit of, uh, active effort. I think some of the barriers that I've felt. Along the way is that you always were the woman in the group, especially in my surgical residency. And there was always an expectation that you would, you know, get tired, or you wouldn't be as strong or as tenacious. And so there always was this constant need to try to outwork or outperform um your colleagues. And, you know, I remember a particular incident where I had put in a chest tube in a patient, and I wasn't really very comfortable about it. I didn't say much. My, you know, chief resident, I was only an intern, so it was my first year. My chief resident was being, um, you know, just told me to forget about it. The chest X-ray looked fine and to move on. And the next day, it turned out the chest tube was like I had suspect suspected, not in the right place. And I remember another resident coming up to me and saying, You never back down, you never not talk about something, or, you know, stand up for yourself. Because if you do that now, if you, if you fail to stand up for yourself now, um, that will persist. And people will look at you as weaker, because you are a female. Now, I, I, you know, of course, I was a little skeptical, but I, it was something I took with me, um, all along, and I never failed to advocate for myself. Um, you know, in any other instance again, and I think that was a good life lesson. But I think some of the barriers were always how you were going to be perceived, you know, especially if you got pregnant. I mean, I feel sorry for the, the poor chief resident that got pregnant during my time in residency, because, you know, gosh, people talked about her all the time. And it wasn't that she was weaker, she was actually probably stronger than most of the people that were, you know, doing their time in residency because she had to not only feel terrible for her first trimester, but get through it. And so I think some of the barriers are the perception that we may not be able to have as much stamina as our male counterparts. Um, and then that lends to your drive, right, to, to overdo it and to be overenthusiastic. The, I'll prove you wrong syndrome. Like, I'll, I'll show you. Right? Yeah. What about others of you? What, what, anything else that you feel like are the unique barriers that is women in this field, you've, you've encountered and had to really be, um, focused on, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna master this, or I'm going to address this. I think for me, I think one of the additional challenges or, or struggles for me is, um, I'm first generation in my family. Um, I'm first generation to go to college, I'm first to graduate, I'm first to go to graduate school. I don't have a reference. My parents didn't go to higher education. And so I think there, it came like an additional chip on my shoulder of like, I don't have a framework for this. I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it extra because I've got to do it for everybody else that, you, You know, kind of set the path before me. And I, and I think about how many other women kind of fall into that sort of feeling like they have to do it a little bit extra to kind of set the stage for, for the rest of your family that never had those opportunities before, um, and sort of what that kind of adds on to the, to the stress. So let's transition now and let's talk about, um, so what do we do? Um, we have, you know, such amazingly wise and smart, uh, women talking today. Tell me a little bit about a, a, a tip or a trick or a tool of the trade that you have used to try and really be focused on your own wellness and well-being. I keep a journal. It's in my desk. I don't write in it every day. But when I'm having a particularly rough time or I feel like I'm not myself, I'll take 5 minutes, and I will just write something. Um, and it's interesting when I go back and read some of the entries, I remember exactly what I was feeling at that time. But it always gives me that, that moment to kind of get back into the present, um, and sort of reflect on my feelings. Nice. Thanks. Journaling has been, you know, the literature even tells us that that's a really, um, solid uh practice for helping us stay mindful. Uh, it would help with prioritization, Chris, which is something you mentioned earlier, and just a place to, to put our thoughts and feelings. What else? I found it's a little helpful when I'm in a moment of, you know, stress or trying to, you just kind of feel on edge, um, to kind of just step back and separate the emotions and kind of the circumstances and, and say, you know, this is now, um, this is kind of name what's going on as best I can, um, and then, uh, try to kind of. Focus on the next step forward, um, until I can kind of be done with the day and, uh, acute needs and, and kind of, uh, again, kind of collect my thoughts. Um, and then the other thing I found, um, helpful is trying to just make some boundaries like we were talking about before, uh, in terms of saying, you know, for the next 2 hours, I'm gonna get to see my family. Um, and my kids will go to bed at 7, but from, you know, 5:30 to 7:30, I'm going to try and leave my phone in the other room unless I'm on call and, and try and actually be present. That doesn't always work, but for me, I've always been a pretty kind of physically active person, and uh so for me, it's always just to do some kind of, you know, athletic activity. Uh, I'm a little too spastic to do yoga, but I think there is something very special about focusing on the breath. So for me, that's swimming where you have to focus on your breathing or running, you know, where you're kinda out of breath, but if there's a steady rhythm to that breath. Um, but I think there is something magical about that mindfulness with, with breathing, um, that does it. And somehow when I do that, even just half an hour or 1 hour, when I come back, things are more clear, and, and then I find that I can do everything else in a much better way. I thought you were pretty mindful when we were kickboxing in one of your breaths. I was definitely out of breath. That's right. That's something this, this group did together pre-COVID was a, a, a kickboxing session. And I think that combined two things. It combined that group and social experience along with something physical that allowed us to, um, you know, move our bodies and, and feel strength in moving our bodies. I'd like to just ask you about what are things we could do to support each other. Well, earlier, um, uh, when we had been discussing ideas for this, I mentioned the, um, the orange theory thing that worked did. And, uh, you know, work at our Connecticut Children's, they supported this, they had a certain number of people join Orange Theory and have a certain number of classes a week, and I never would have taken the time to do that kind of on my own because that would have felt selfish. It was time away from my children, time away from other things I could be doing, and why, you know, why take the time to do that when I could just get a workout going for a jog or when, you know, and I wasn't socializing during that time, so I wasn't even multitasking in the way that we like to. Um, but yet, because it was through work, I made it a priority and actually got it done. Same thing with our women in surgery group. I mean, I wouldn't have gone, you know, to some random kind of strip mall and kickbox on an evening. But we did and and we did it because, you know, it was with work and it was with this important group. And, you know, kind of, we shouldn't need that. But if that's what it takes, um, you know, the, to set up things like that more, you know, we should have a women in surgery running group or something, you know. Whatever it takes to kind of get it done and make it a priority, or if that's just a wake-up call for calling what we normally do with a group of friends, you know, important enough to schedule it. I'm coming off manager training yesterday for setting our goals for fiscal year 2021. Um, and I was sort of thinking, like, wouldn't it have been nice if every like team member at Connecticut Children's had to set themselves a wellness goal, like, we have to set a goal now for diversity, and, you know, what about big rocks and stuff like that. But, you know, I was struck, I think Sonia, you and I were talking one time about book club, and that, you know, would we ever give ourselves permission to read a book and get it done, unless we knew we had to get it done for book club sort of thing. And I just think about. You know, what would the experience be like if every team member at Connecticut Children's had to set a wellness goal um for themselves, and it was supported sort of by the institution. Um, I just, I think it'd be a really neat environment that might create. Well, I think one of the things for wellness is also, especially in my role, is to show compassion to others in recognizing that, you know, every now and then, some of us need a little extra. And with that extra maybe just, you know, um, 10 minutes, you know, to go catch your breath, a cup of coffee, or just a listening ear, um, because something's not going your way. And so I think wellness also means helping each other to be well. And if we all walk that, at least, you know, part of our day, how much better, you know, we all would be in our community within. You know, within Connecticut Children's. And I think we do have that environment, um, especially in the OR. I feel like, uh, it's, it's very much a family, um, and I can think back to early on when I started, I had had, um, just a, a, a very bad morning, um, and had a robotic case and, um, Dorothy, you know, came around with a, a, a handwritten card. And, um, you know, I could tell I was having a bad day and, uh, and I still have it in my office, um, and it was just one of those, you know, super sweet things that she has, you know, and many of our, many of our staff are just like that, um, had, had really, you know, seen us having a bad day and really tried to, to support that through, um, and I think that, I think we're lucky in that respect in terms of our community. I absolutely agree. I have to jump in on that one because I do think that the OR feeds our soul. It not only feeds our creative soul and what we've, you know, aspired to become, um, but the people within the OR feed our souls because they are like our family, and I'm not sure it's like that in every. Uh, other place, but I completely and utterly agree with the fact that um each one of those members, whether they're a tech, a nurse, a physician, an anesthesiologist, you know, they all recognize when you're not yourself. And I think probably because they work with us in some of the worst, you know, times, and some of the best times, and they, they're just that support that you need, that foundation that, you know, you can feel better when you, when you walk in and you see them. Thank you for some of those tips on how we have each embraced wellness and put our Ourselves further down the path on that wellness journey. I think that's our show for today. I want to thank Doctor Melissa Santos, Doctor Anne Dudley, Doctor Sonia Chaudry, and Doctor Chris Fink for helping us explore, uh, wellness and well-being. And, uh, uh thank you, our listeners for listening. That's our show. Thank you for listening. This episode concludes season one of our Women in Surgery podcast. Stay tuned for season two as we bring women surgeons in to discuss gender disparities in the field of healthcare. Please visit Connecticut Children's.org and don't forget to rate, review, or subscribe to the Women in Surgery podcast on iTunes, Spotify, or Google Play.