So I think it's incumbent on us at this stage to to treat patients as individuals and utilize a combination of non-invasive and invasive testing with stress to tease out if the primary problem is a vascular resistance problem through the lung circulation, if the primary problem is ventricular stiffness, or if the primary. The problem is a substantial combination of both and target their therapies towards what we have and what we can use to those specific problems in our future.
So I think it's incumbent on us at this stage to to treat patients as individuals and utilize a combination of non-invasive and invasive testing with stress to tease out if the primary problem is a vascular resistance problem through the lung circulation, if the primary problem is ventricular stiffness, or if the primary. The problem is a substantial combination of both and target their therapies towards what we have and what we can use to those specific problems in our future.
Case Review Dynamic Assessment of the Fontan Part I: New Horizons in Medical...
▶Ep 12 · 0:44
quoteI'm happy to have learned that my left ventricular and diastolic pressure is not 20, uh, facing my 40th birthday in a couple of weeks.↗
▶Ep 12 · 0:44
quoteI'm happy to have learned that my left ventricular and diastolic pressure is not 20, uh, facing my 40th birthday in a couple of weeks.↗
▶Ep 12 · 1:26
quoteIn any circulation, blood flow per unit time is dependent upon the drop in pressure across the vascular bed. And the vascular resistance, of course, Ohm's law.↗
▶Ep 12 · 1:26
clinicalIn any circulation, blood flow per unit time is dependent upon the drop in pressure across the vascular bed and the vascular resistance (Ohm's law).↗
▶Ep 12 · 1:26
quoteIn any circulation, blood flow per unit time is dependent upon the drop in pressure across the vascular bed. And the vascular resistance, of course, Ohm's law.↗
▶Ep 12 · 1:26
clinicalIn any circulation, blood flow per unit time is dependent upon the drop in pressure across the vascular bed and the vascular resistance (Ohm's law).↗
▶Ep 12 · 2:07
clinicalBiventricular circulation is characterized by low right ventricular pressure, low pulmonary arterial pressure, and low pulmonary vascular resistance.↗
▶Ep 12 · 2:07
clinicalBiventricular circulation is characterized by low right ventricular pressure, low pulmonary arterial pressure, and low pulmonary vascular resistance.↗
▶Ep 12 · 2:31
clinicalDuring exercise in biventricular circulation, cardiac output can increase to approximately 5 times baseline cardiac output.↗
▶Ep 12 · 2:31
clinicalDuring exercise in biventricular circulation, cardiac output can increase to approximately 5 times baseline cardiac output.↗
▶Ep 12 · 2:41
clinicalThe pulmonary vascular resistance falls characteristically during exercise in biventricular circulation, allowing for substantial augmentation of pulmonary blood flow.↗
▶Ep 12 · 2:41
clinicalThe pulmonary vascular resistance falls characteristically during exercise in biventricular circulation, allowing for substantial augmentation of pulmonary blood flow.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:01
clinicalIn the Fontan circuit, the pulmonary vascular resistance is typically both fixed and elevated.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:01
clinicalIn the Fontan circuit, the pulmonary vascular resistance is typically both fixed and elevated.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:21
quoteThus, even with a moderate elevation in central venous pressure, the pulmonary blood flow is limited, which limits systemic blood flow.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:21
quoteThus, even with a moderate elevation in central venous pressure, the pulmonary blood flow is limited, which limits systemic blood flow.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:28
clinicalIn Fontan circulation, baseline cardiac output is typically near normal but a bit reduced, 70 to 80%.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:28
clinicalIn Fontan circulation, baseline cardiac output is typically near normal but a bit reduced, 70 to 80%.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:39
clinicalCentral venous pressure in Fontan patients is chronically elevated because there is no ventricle to do the work of the subpulmonary blood flow.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:39
clinicalCentral venous pressure in Fontan patients is chronically elevated because there is no ventricle to do the work of the subpulmonary blood flow.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:49
clinicalWith exercise in Fontan patients, cardiac output increases quite a bit more limited than in the two ventricle population, characterized by increased central venous pressure and increased pulmonary vascular resistance.↗
▶Ep 12 · 3:49
clinicalWith exercise in Fontan patients, cardiac output increases quite a bit more limited than in the two ventricle population, characterized by increased central venous pressure and increased pulmonary vascular resistance.↗
▶Ep 12 · 4:30
clinicalAt rest with zero exercise, cardiac output in typical or good Fontan patients is 70 to 80% of a normal biventricular patient, and identifying differences between these two populations may be subtle.↗
▶Ep 12 · 4:30
clinicalAt rest with zero exercise, cardiac output in typical or good Fontan patients is 70 to 80% of a normal biventricular patient, and identifying differences between these two populations may be subtle.↗
▶Ep 12 · 4:49
quoteHowever, with augmentation of cardiac output or with stress or exercise, the difference between the Fontan patient and the biventricular patient becomes substantially increased, and identifying abnormalities or limitations in the Fontan circuit becomes quite a bit easier.↗
▶Ep 12 · 4:49
clinicalWith augmentation of cardiac output or with stress or exercise, the difference between the Fontan patient and the biventricular patient becomes substantially increased.↗
▶Ep 12 · 4:49
quoteHowever, with augmentation of cardiac output or with stress or exercise, the difference between the Fontan patient and the biventricular patient becomes substantially increased, and identifying abnormalities or limitations in the Fontan circuit becomes quite a bit easier.↗
▶Ep 12 · 4:49
clinicalWith augmentation of cardiac output or with stress or exercise, the difference between the Fontan patient and the biventricular patient becomes substantially increased.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:16
clinicalThe limitations of cardiac output in the Fontan circulation can be distilled down to pulmonary vascular resistance, diastolic function of the ventricle, and systolic function of the ventricle.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:16
clinicalThe limitations of cardiac output in the Fontan circulation can be distilled down to pulmonary vascular resistance, diastolic function of the ventricle, and systolic function of the ventricle.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:28
quoteI placed the systolic function in gray because typically systolic function is preserved, at least preserved until very late in the clinical presentation with difficulties, and so I think most of these problems boil down to problems with the vascular resistance across the pulmonary bed, probably in the systemic bed and diastolic function of the systemic ventricle.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:28
quoteI placed the systolic function in gray because typically systolic function is preserved, at least preserved until very late in the clinical presentation with difficulties, and so I think most of these problems boil down to problems with the vascular resistance across the pulmonary bed, probably in the systemic bed and diastolic function of the systemic ventricle.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:28
clinicalSystolic function is typically preserved in Fontan patients, at least preserved until very late in the clinical presentation with difficulties.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:28
clinicalSystolic function is typically preserved in Fontan patients, at least preserved until very late in the clinical presentation with difficulties.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:50
clinicalMost or all variables in Fontan circulation may be pretty typical or near normal at rest, thus to understand limitations, one must evaluate these variables in a dynamic or stressed state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:50
quoteTo the extent that rest and cardiac output is near normal, as we just talked about, most or all of these variables may be pretty typical or near normal at rest. And thus to understand these limitations, one must evaluate these variables in a dynamic or stressed state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:50
clinicalMost or all variables in Fontan circulation may be pretty typical or near normal at rest, thus to understand limitations, one must evaluate these variables in a dynamic or stressed state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 5:50
quoteTo the extent that rest and cardiac output is near normal, as we just talked about, most or all of these variables may be pretty typical or near normal at rest. And thus to understand these limitations, one must evaluate these variables in a dynamic or stressed state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 6:56
clinicalIn a series of Fontan patients who underwent supine exercise with invasive hemodynamics, pulmonary vascular resistance was elevated at rest and with exercise, the pulmonary vascular resistance was quite static and did not decrease as expected with maximal exercise.↗
▶Ep 12 · 6:56
clinicalIn a series of Fontan patients who underwent supine exercise with invasive hemodynamics, pulmonary vascular resistance was elevated at rest and with exercise, the pulmonary vascular resistance was quite static and did not decrease as expected with maximal exercise.↗
▶Ep 12 · 7:21
clinicalIn patients with biventricular circulation, pulmonary vascular resistance begins lower and falls with exercise.↗
▶Ep 12 · 7:21
clinicalIn patients with biventricular circulation, pulmonary vascular resistance begins lower and falls with exercise.↗
▶Ep 12 · 7:21
quoteImportantly, if you compare this graphic to patients who have biventricular circulation, their pulmonary vascular resistance begins lower and falls with exercise.↗
▶Ep 12 · 7:21
quoteImportantly, if you compare this graphic to patients who have biventricular circulation, their pulmonary vascular resistance begins lower and falls with exercise.↗
▶Ep 12 · 8:05
clinicalThe Pediatric Heart Network Fuel trial is a randomized trial of 400 Fontan patients, with 200 receiving udenafil (a PDE5 inhibitor) and 200 receiving placebo, evaluating exercise capacity after 6 months of therapy.↗
▶Ep 12 · 8:05
clinicalThe Pediatric Heart Network Fuel trial is a randomized trial of 400 Fontan patients, with 200 receiving udenafil (a PDE5 inhibitor) and 200 receiving placebo, evaluating exercise capacity after 6 months of therapy.↗
▶Ep 12 · 9:03
host_summaryWith echocardiographic assessment of diastolic function, nearly 3/4 of Fontan patients demonstrate abnormalities of early relaxation or elevated atrial filling pressure, suggesting problems with diastolic function are quite prevalent.↗
▶Ep 12 · 9:03
clinicalWith echocardiographic assessment of diastolic function, nearly 3/4 of Fontan patients demonstrate abnormalities of early relaxation or elevated atrial filling pressure, suggesting problems with diastolic function are quite prevalent.↗
▶Ep 12 · 9:27
clinicalIn a study comparing Fontan patients with normal diastolic function versus those with diastolic dysfunction by echocardiography, patients with diastolic dysfunction had reduced peak VO2 and peak work with both supine and upright exercise.↗
▶Ep 12 · 9:27
clinicalIn a study comparing Fontan patients with normal diastolic function versus those with diastolic dysfunction by echocardiography, patients with diastolic dysfunction had reduced peak VO2 and peak work with both supine and upright exercise.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:10
quoteNow the the diagnosis of diastolic dysfunction, as we've heard earlier from Doctor Reddington, may be difficult. Um, first, we don't have population specific validated non-invasive measures.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:10
quoteNow the the diagnosis of diastolic dysfunction, as we've heard earlier from Doctor Reddington, may be difficult. Um, first, we don't have population specific validated non-invasive measures.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:16
clinicalEchocardiographic measures of diastolic function have not been validated in a Fontan population.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:16
clinicalEchocardiographic measures of diastolic function have not been validated in a Fontan population.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:27
clinicalInvasive assessment of end-diastolic pressure in symptomatic Fontan patients is frequently unrevealing in the resting state because patients are often preload starved from being NPO, lying supine, and not undergoing stress.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:27
clinicalInvasive assessment of end-diastolic pressure in symptomatic Fontan patients is frequently unrevealing in the resting state because patients are often preload starved from being NPO, lying supine, and not undergoing stress.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:27
quoteInvasive assessment of the end diastolic pressure, the gold standard for diastolic dysfunction, even in the symptomatic Fontan patient, it is frequently unrevealing in the resting state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:27
quoteInvasive assessment of the end diastolic pressure, the gold standard for diastolic dysfunction, even in the symptomatic Fontan patient, it is frequently unrevealing in the resting state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:52
quoteSo locally we generated a protocol of rapid volume expansion to perform what we'd call a ventricular stress testing to evaluate for what we've termed occult diastolic dysfunction, which is just diastolic dysfunction. It's not revealed at baseline under those non-stress conditions.↗
▶Ep 12 · 10:52
quoteSo locally we generated a protocol of rapid volume expansion to perform what we'd call a ventricular stress testing to evaluate for what we've termed occult diastolic dysfunction, which is just diastolic dysfunction. It's not revealed at baseline under those non-stress conditions.↗
▶Ep 12 · 11:05
clinicalIn a protocol of rapid volume expansion (ventricular stress testing) in 46 Fontan patients, ventricular filling pressure (end-diastolic pressure) was significantly increased after exposure to volume, while transpulmonary gradient, pulmonary vascular resistance, and cardiac index were not significantly affected.↗
▶Ep 12 · 11:05
clinicalIn a protocol of rapid volume expansion (ventricular stress testing) in 46 Fontan patients, ventricular filling pressure (end-diastolic pressure) was significantly increased after exposure to volume, while transpulmonary gradient, pulmonary vascular resistance, and cardiac index were not significantly affected.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:09
quoteOn the whole, about 35% of patients demonstrated what we termed occult diastolic dysfunction, which was defined as a post volume challenge and diastolic pressure of greater or equal than 15 millimeters of mercury.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:09
clinicalAbout 35% of Fontan patients demonstrated occult diastolic dysfunction, defined as a post volume challenge end-diastolic pressure of greater than or equal to 15 millimeters of mercury.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:09
quoteOn the whole, about 35% of patients demonstrated what we termed occult diastolic dysfunction, which was defined as a post volume challenge and diastolic pressure of greater or equal than 15 millimeters of mercury.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:09
clinicalAbout 35% of Fontan patients demonstrated occult diastolic dysfunction, defined as a post volume challenge end-diastolic pressure of greater than or equal to 15 millimeters of mercury.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:22
clinicalIn univariate analysis, higher baseline end-diastolic pressure, longer duration of Fontan circulation, and lower baseline cardiac index were associated with higher fluid challenge end-diastolic pressure.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:22
clinicalIn univariate analysis, higher baseline end-diastolic pressure, longer duration of Fontan circulation, and lower baseline cardiac index were associated with higher fluid challenge end-diastolic pressure.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:40
quoteAnd this makes some intuitive sense that the longer duration of exposure, just like the longer duration of life in a standard biventricular circulation, is associated with a progressive increase in filling pressure and diastolic stiffness.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:40
quoteAnd this makes some intuitive sense that the longer duration of exposure, just like the longer duration of life in a standard biventricular circulation, is associated with a progressive increase in filling pressure and diastolic stiffness.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:53
clinicalLonger duration of Fontan circulation was associated with a greater change in filling pressure during volume challenge.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:53
clinicalLonger duration of Fontan circulation was associated with a greater change in filling pressure during volume challenge.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:58
clinicalIn multivariable analysis, baseline end-diastolic pressure was the only finding associated with the final end-diastolic pressure after volume challenge.↗
▶Ep 12 · 12:58
clinicalIn multivariable analysis, baseline end-diastolic pressure was the only finding associated with the final end-diastolic pressure after volume challenge.↗
▶Ep 12 · 13:06
quoteUm, we've published the 46 patients, we've now performed testing in over 100 patients, and we've shared this protocol with a number of other large congenital heart centers, uh, who are interested in utilizing this to really tease out who has and who does not have that degree of diastolic dysfunction.↗
▶Ep 12 · 13:06
quoteUm, we've published the 46 patients, we've now performed testing in over 100 patients, and we've shared this protocol with a number of other large congenital heart centers, uh, who are interested in utilizing this to really tease out who has and who does not have that degree of diastolic dysfunction.↗
▶Ep 12 · 13:06
clinicalThe volume challenge protocol has been shared with a number of other large congenital heart centers and has now been performed in over 100 patients.↗
▶Ep 12 · 13:06
clinicalThe volume challenge protocol has been shared with a number of other large congenital heart centers and has now been performed in over 100 patients.↗
▶Ep 12 · 14:24
quoteAnd we know that Fontaine patients can have the presence of mechanical dissynchrony without electrical dissynchrony. This contributes to overall ventricular dysfunction, both systolic and diastolic, and reducing that dissynchrony could improve mechanics, which could improve symptomatic patients.↗
▶Ep 12 · 14:24
clinicalFontan patients can have the presence of mechanical dyssynchrony without electrical dyssynchrony, which contributes to overall ventricular dysfunction, both systolic and diastolic.↗
▶Ep 12 · 14:24
clinicalFontan patients can have the presence of mechanical dyssynchrony without electrical dyssynchrony, which contributes to overall ventricular dysfunction, both systolic and diastolic.↗
▶Ep 12 · 14:24
quoteAnd we know that Fontaine patients can have the presence of mechanical dissynchrony without electrical dissynchrony. This contributes to overall ventricular dysfunction, both systolic and diastolic, and reducing that dissynchrony could improve mechanics, which could improve symptomatic patients.↗
▶Ep 12 · 15:02
quoteAnd in theory, acute improvements in ventricular mechanics could translate to long-term clinical benefits. Of course this is an unproven assertion.↗
▶Ep 12 · 15:02
opinionAcute improvements in ventricular mechanics from pacing could translate to long-term clinical benefits, though this is an unproven assertion.↗
▶Ep 12 · 15:02
quoteAnd in theory, acute improvements in ventricular mechanics could translate to long-term clinical benefits. Of course this is an unproven assertion.↗
▶Ep 12 · 15:02
opinionAcute improvements in ventricular mechanics from pacing could translate to long-term clinical benefits, though this is an unproven assertion.↗
▶Ep 12 · 15:37
clinicalIn the catheterization laboratory, a multimodality setup with conductance catheter feeds, electrical anatomic mapping, fluoro, ECG, and voltage mapping can identify ideal pacing sites and demonstrate ventricular mechanic changes at each site.↗
▶Ep 12 · 15:37
clinicalIn the catheterization laboratory, a multimodality setup with conductance catheter feeds, electrical anatomic mapping, fluoro, ECG, and voltage mapping can identify ideal pacing sites and demonstrate ventricular mechanic changes at each site.↗
▶Ep 12 · 16:09
quoteDynamic assessment of the Fontan circulation might provide substantial insight into what can be beyond what can be obtained in the resting state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 16:09
opinionDynamic assessment of the Fontan circulation might provide substantial insight beyond what can be obtained in the resting state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 16:09
opinionDynamic assessment of the Fontan circulation might provide substantial insight beyond what can be obtained in the resting state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 16:09
quoteDynamic assessment of the Fontan circulation might provide substantial insight into what can be beyond what can be obtained in the resting state.↗
▶Ep 12 · 16:18
quoteBy combining disciplines and expertise across uh cardiology domains, we may be able to offer complex Fontan patients improved insight into the mechanisms of Fontan limitation and Fontan failure and hopefully uh translate these mechanisms into potential solutions to improve both functionality and quality of life.↗
▶Ep 12 · 16:18
quoteBy combining disciplines and expertise across uh cardiology domains, we may be able to offer complex Fontan patients improved insight into the mechanisms of Fontan limitation and Fontan failure and hopefully uh translate these mechanisms into potential solutions to improve both functionality and quality of life.↗
▶Ep 12 · 16:38
opinionPathologies in pulmonary vascular resistance and diastolic function are likely to play critical roles in the limitations of Fontan patients.↗
▶Ep 12 · 16:38
opinionPathologies in pulmonary vascular resistance and diastolic function are likely to play critical roles in the limitations of Fontan patients.↗
▶Ep 12 · 18:07
quoteI think one of the issues with large scale trials, for example, the fuel trial, which has 400 patients, is that we haven't, uh, uh, made efforts to identify those patients who specifically have problems with pulmonary vascular resistance before inclusion in the trial.↗
▶Ep 12 · 18:07
quoteI think one of the issues with large scale trials, for example, the fuel trial, which has 400 patients, is that we haven't, uh, uh, made efforts to identify those patients who specifically have problems with pulmonary vascular resistance before inclusion in the trial.↗
▶Ep 12 · 18:07
clinicalIn the Fuel trial with 400 patients, efforts have not been made to identify those patients who specifically have problems with pulmonary vascular resistance before inclusion in the trial.↗
▶Ep 12 · 18:07
clinicalIn the Fuel trial with 400 patients, efforts have not been made to identify those patients who specifically have problems with pulmonary vascular resistance before inclusion in the trial.↗
▶Ep 12 · 18:24
opinionPatients with relatively low pulmonary vascular resistance but substantial ventricular noncompliance may not respond to PDE5 inhibitor therapy if the drug does not have lusotropic effects to overcome ventricular fibrosis and noncompliance.↗
▶Ep 12 · 18:24
opinionPatients with relatively low pulmonary vascular resistance but substantial ventricular noncompliance may not respond to PDE5 inhibitor therapy if the drug does not have lusotropic effects to overcome ventricular fibrosis and noncompliance.↗
▶Ep 12 · 18:55
quoteSo I think it's incumbent on us at this stage to to treat patients as individuals and utilize a combination of non-invasive and invasive testing with stress to tease out if the primary problem is a vascular resistance problem through the lung circulation, if the primary problem is ventricular stiffness, or if the primary. The problem is a substantial combination of both and target their therapies towards what we have and what we can use to those specific problems in our future.↗
▶Ep 12 · 18:55
quoteSo I think it's incumbent on us at this stage to to treat patients as individuals and utilize a combination of non-invasive and invasive testing with stress to tease out if the primary problem is a vascular resistance problem through the lung circulation, if the primary problem is ventricular stiffness, or if the primary. The problem is a substantial combination of both and target their therapies towards what we have and what we can use to those specific problems in our future.↗
▶Ep 12 · 20:04
quoteYes, absolutely true, um, we did look at both overall change in EDP per unit time and everyone's unit time. is the same, so that reflects slope. We also looked at those who got to an absolute higher number. Both populations are known to us↗
▶Ep 12 · 20:04
quoteYes, absolutely true, um, we did look at both overall change in EDP per unit time and everyone's unit time. is the same, so that reflects slope. We also looked at those who got to an absolute higher number. Both populations are known to us↗
▶Ep 12 · 21:09
clinicalBNP was measured after exercise in the invasive exercise cohort, and almost universally it was a meaningless measure, with every patient's number between 15 and 40.↗
▶Ep 12 · 21:09
quoteYeah, so this is a great question. We did measure BMP. We measured BMP after exercise, and almost universally it's a meaningless measure. Um, we, every patient's number was between 15 and 40, and it's hard to tease out substantive differences in relatively modest sized populations, 50, 60 patients between numbers that are that small.↗
▶Ep 12 · 21:09
quoteYeah, so this is a great question. We did measure BMP. We measured BMP after exercise, and almost universally it's a meaningless measure. Um, we, every patient's number was between 15 and 40, and it's hard to tease out substantive differences in relatively modest sized populations, 50, 60 patients between numbers that are that small.↗
▶Ep 12 · 21:09
clinicalBNP was measured after exercise in the invasive exercise cohort, and almost universally it was a meaningless measure, with every patient's number between 15 and 40.↗
▶Ep 12 · 21:27
quoteSo, um, we did, but it didn't prove meaningful in our cohort, and I think that unfortunately may be a lesson from. You know, Fontaine patients in general that the easy biomarker has proved difficult to identify because their EDP is probably quite low and it's not straining their atrium if you like.↗
▶Ep 12 · 21:27
quoteSo, um, we did, but it didn't prove meaningful in our cohort, and I think that unfortunately may be a lesson from. You know, Fontaine patients in general that the easy biomarker has proved difficult to identify because their EDP is probably quite low and it's not straining their atrium if you like.↗
▶Ep 12 · 21:27
opinionThe easy biomarker has proved difficult to identify in Fontan patients because their end-diastolic pressure is probably quite low and not straining their atrium.↗
▶Ep 12 · 21:27
opinionThe easy biomarker has proved difficult to identify in Fontan patients because their end-diastolic pressure is probably quite low and not straining their atrium.↗
▶Ep 12 · 22:34
quoteYeah, stay tuned. I think we have access to all of these data with this specific cohort of 100 patients, so we have all these invasive stress data for us, so we'll see how that plays out, what we identify.↗
▶Ep 12 · 22:34
quoteYeah, stay tuned. I think we have access to all of these data with this specific cohort of 100 patients, so we have all these invasive stress data for us, so we'll see how that plays out, what we identify.↗